Comments on: Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, and Number 756 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/ The online culture magazine Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:36:10 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Frank J. Colagiovanni http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-187 Frank J. Colagiovanni Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:04:34 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-187 Zack: Thanks for your reply and for keeping this discussion going. I’m not stereotyping Barry Bonds at all. In fact, I’m dong exactly the opposite. I’m using the facts of the case as I know and understand them to reach a calculated conclusion. Stereotyping is a knee-jerk reaction, grounded in pre-conceived notions and assumptions. A judgment based on available fact is, at the very least, a reasonable verdict. While his physical appearance, and the extremely dramatic change in that appearance, is a factor in the conclusion that I and many others have reached, it’s not the “lead indicator” — not by a long shot. Especially when it’s considered in the context of the “bulked-up, late-90’s” that saw McGwire, Soso and Giambi all put on a lot of “mass.” As for the illegality that hasn’t been a part of my argument at all. I don’t think he should necessarily be prosecuted, at least not yet. But the burden of proof incumbent upon the State to prosecute a crime is significantly different than the burden of proof incumbent upon MLB—especially when considering the “in the best interest of the game” clause the commissioner has at his discretion. For all I know “it was Tylenol or aspirin or Ben-Gay” that he took, but the evidence points in a different direction, evidence including the leaked Grand Jury testimony, the contents of the Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams book Game of Shadows, interviews and statements made by the founder and president of Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (BALCO), Victor Conte, and the fact that the investigation has just been extended by the Federal government. Those are all fairly good indicators that something stinks in Denmark. For all you know he was taking a performance enhancer that did not register on the test or was using a masking agent to cover them up. Additionally, there has been very little commentary recently about presumed innocence, in fact it’s taken on air of “settled law” that Bonds did use substances he shouldn’t have. Even the fence-straddling media members calling the All Star Game were willing to concede the point that the evidence, and there is plenty of it out there, points to cheating in some form. That’s why I find it so odd that the comments then turn to the “he was great before he cheated, so it really shouldn’t matter” variety. I’ve looked at the information available, considered the presidents of past “cheating” in baseball and reached a measured conclusion. None of that is consistent with stereotyping. Zack:

Thanks for your reply and for keeping this discussion going.

I’m not stereotyping Barry Bonds at all.

In fact, I’m dong exactly the opposite. I’m using the facts of the case as I know and understand them to reach a calculated conclusion. Stereotyping is a knee-jerk reaction, grounded in pre-conceived notions and assumptions. A judgment based on available fact is, at the very least, a reasonable verdict.

While his physical appearance, and the extremely dramatic change in that appearance, is a factor in the conclusion that I and many others have reached, it’s not the “lead indicator” — not by a long shot. Especially when it’s considered in the context of the “bulked-up, late-90’s” that saw McGwire, Soso and Giambi all put on a lot of “mass.”

As for the illegality that hasn’t been a part of my argument at all. I don’t think he should necessarily be prosecuted, at least not yet. But the burden of proof incumbent upon the State to prosecute a crime is significantly different than the burden of proof incumbent upon MLB—especially when considering the “in the best interest of the game” clause the commissioner has at his discretion.

For all I know “it was Tylenol or aspirin or Ben-Gay” that he took, but the evidence points in a different direction, evidence including the leaked Grand Jury testimony, the contents of the Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams book Game of Shadows, interviews and statements made by the founder and president of Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (BALCO), Victor Conte, and the fact that the investigation has just been extended by the Federal government. Those are all fairly good indicators that something stinks in Denmark.

For all you know he was taking a performance enhancer that did not register on the test or was using a masking agent to cover them up.

Additionally, there has been very little commentary recently about presumed innocence, in fact it’s taken on air of “settled law” that Bonds did use substances he shouldn’t have. Even the fence-straddling media members calling the All Star Game were willing to concede the point that the evidence, and there is plenty of it out there, points to cheating in some form. That’s why I find it so odd that the comments then turn to the “he was great before he cheated, so it really shouldn’t matter” variety.

I’ve looked at the information available, considered the presidents of past “cheating” in baseball and reached a measured conclusion. None of that is consistent with stereotyping.

]]> By: Zack http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-176 Zack Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:34:35 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-176 Everyone who is accusing Bonds of wrongdoing and states that the game will forever be tarnished when he breaks the record is guilty of judging someone based on appearance whom has met the requirements of the sport. They have tested Bonds, repeatedly, for Steroids. Not once has he failed that test. Thus, he met the requirements for the sport. You say that he stood in front of the Grand Jury and said the he took "something"....well, what is that "something"? For all you know it was Tylenol or aspirin or Ben-Gay. You are making the assumption that he did something illegal because of the way he looks, which is stereotyping. Everyone who is accusing Bonds of wrongdoing and states that the game will forever be tarnished when he breaks the record is guilty of judging someone based on appearance whom has met the requirements of the sport. They have tested Bonds, repeatedly, for Steroids. Not once has he failed that test. Thus, he met the requirements for the sport. You say that he stood in front of the Grand Jury and said the he took “something”….well, what is that “something”? For all you know it was Tylenol or aspirin or Ben-Gay. You are making the assumption that he did something illegal because of the way he looks, which is stereotyping.

]]> By: Frank J. Colagiovanni http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-111 Frank J. Colagiovanni Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:48:32 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-111 BigTrain, Thanks for reading and for continuing the discussion. It’s an interesting topic, with a lot of points, and one that I’ve given a great deal of thought. I agree that, most likely, by the time MLB realized what was going on—and to what extent—with regard to the Sosa and McGwire home run chase. They were already so deep into it that there was no way out. I’m under no dissolution that the MLB brass didn’t know about performance enhancers in the 90’s, but I do think that, like a snowball rolling down hill, the way it happened caught them a little off guard. Either way they (MLB) handled it poorly, and continue to do so. I look at the NFL and see that they at least seem to be making an effort and at most are sanctioning and suspending players. Weather ESPN has had a “pernicious influence … on sports” is in some respects beside the point, at least from my perspective. Especially when you look at the past history of the Game and those players who were tossed out of it. By your logic, at least if I’m reading correctly, it’s only the prowess of the player that matters, despite the fact that the player may have violated the rules—and might have been called on it. Rose was fantastic in every aspect of the Game, but he broke the rules, and was caught doing so—red handed with betting slips. Jackson was possibly one of the greatest hitters ever to play the Game and, even though he hit and fielded well in the Series, the fact is he took the money. Bonds, a 5-tool, MVP caliber player has been called to testify before a Grand Jury, admitting he took “something”—admitting he broke the rules. Prowess, acumen and ability enable a player to perform at a high level, but if they are performing “outside the lines” then they are really not playing the Game. I’d never sit down at a chess table in Central Park, drop my five dollars on the board, if the guy sitting opposite me had queens in place of rooks. Set up with a standard backline, I’d never stand a chance. Not because that guy is likely better than me, but because the “rules” he is starting with are not the “rules” I’m starting with. That chess-guy likely has me beat on ability; his juced lineup just makes my defeat so much faster. But to say that he’d have beaten me anyway so it’s fine that he had a two-queen advantage—or that Bonds, Sosa and McGwire already were performing at a superior level so it’s OK that they took enhancers—leaves me confused. Seeing and hitting the ball, just like executing a Blackburn Shilling Gambit, is only part of each respective game. The ability to do each of these effectively is important. However equally important to playing a game, any game, is that the rules apply to everyone, equally. Unless, of course, you feel that, as Orwell put it “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” Bobby Fisher was arguably the best chess master ever, but it would never be acceptable for him to play with different pieces despite his ability to “play 12 moves ahead.” Playing with a different set of pieces would likely result in his defeating his opponent in faster—record setting—time. Just as performance enhancers likely have enabled players like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire to have, at least, longer—record setting—careers. BigTrain, Thanks for reading and for continuing the discussion. It’s an interesting topic, with a lot of points, and one that I’ve given a great deal of thought.
I agree that, most likely, by the time MLB realized what was going on—and to what extent—with regard to the Sosa and McGwire home run chase. They were already so deep into it that there was no way out. I’m under no dissolution that the MLB brass didn’t know about performance enhancers in the 90’s, but I do think that, like a snowball rolling down hill, the way it happened caught them a little off guard. Either way they (MLB) handled it poorly, and continue to do so. I look at the NFL and see that they at least seem to be making an effort and at most are sanctioning and suspending players.
Weather ESPN has had a “pernicious influence … on sports” is in some respects beside the point, at least from my perspective. Especially when you look at the past history of the Game and those players who were tossed out of it. By your logic, at least if I’m reading correctly, it’s only the prowess of the player that matters, despite the fact that the player may have violated the rules—and might have been called on it.
Rose was fantastic in every aspect of the Game, but he broke the rules, and was caught doing so—red handed with betting slips. Jackson was possibly one of the greatest hitters ever to play the Game and, even though he hit and fielded well in the Series, the fact is he took the money.
Bonds, a 5-tool, MVP caliber player has been called to testify before a Grand Jury, admitting he took “something”—admitting he broke the rules.
Prowess, acumen and ability enable a player to perform at a high level, but if they are performing “outside the lines” then they are really not playing the Game. I’d never sit down at a chess table in Central Park, drop my five dollars on the board, if the guy sitting opposite me had queens in place of rooks. Set up with a standard backline, I’d never stand a chance. Not because that guy is likely better than me, but because the “rules” he is starting with are not the “rules” I’m starting with.
That chess-guy likely has me beat on ability; his juced lineup just makes my defeat so much faster. But to say that he’d have beaten me anyway so it’s fine that he had a two-queen advantage—or that Bonds, Sosa and McGwire already were performing at a superior level so it’s OK that they took enhancers—leaves me confused. Seeing and hitting the ball, just like executing a Blackburn Shilling Gambit, is only part of each respective game. The ability to do each of these effectively is important. However equally important to playing a game, any game, is that the rules apply to everyone, equally. Unless, of course, you feel that, as Orwell put it “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
Bobby Fisher was arguably the best chess master ever, but it would never be acceptable for him to play with different pieces despite his ability to “play 12 moves ahead.” Playing with a different set of pieces would likely result in his defeating his opponent in faster—record setting—time. Just as performance enhancers likely have enabled players like Bonds, Sosa and McGwire to have, at least, longer—record setting—careers.

]]> By: BigTrain http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-105 BigTrain Sun, 24 Jun 2007 00:43:20 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-105 Curt - you make many interesting points, but I'm not so sure that cheating is limited to Americans, or American sport. Look no further than FIFA and the Italian Football scandal of a few years ago. While I appreciate a screed against late capitalist America as much as the next guy, I don't think it's necessarily relevant here. I think in the 90s MLB knew what was going on re: steroids, but overlooked it for a number of reasons, primarily their need to recover from the disastrous '94 strike and their desire to avoid going head-to-head with the players union (again), especially over a non-revenue related issue. While you're right about the pernicious influence of ESPN on sports, I think the significance of the HR record (and the general interest surrounding all the other MLB records) long predate ESPN, and TV in general. People like numbers. You said 'Steroids in sports are essential today. Fans won’t pay to see natural play. Too boring.' The exact results of the Steriod era can be argued, but it seems to me that their use doesn't necessarily translate into your percieved degradation of the game. Juiced baseballs, smaller stikezones, lower mounds - these result in the type of ball you disapprove of - Steroids seem to come into play for those records that are more endurance related (Season HR record - gotta stay off the DL for that, Career HR record - gotta stay healthy and in the game to get there), but don't seem to really affect performance - you've still got to see the ball to hit the ball. Curt – you make many interesting points, but I’m not so sure that cheating is limited to Americans, or American sport. Look no further than FIFA and the Italian Football scandal of a few years ago. While I appreciate a screed against late capitalist America as much as the next guy, I don’t think it’s necessarily relevant here. I think in the 90s MLB knew what was going on re: steroids, but overlooked it for a number of reasons, primarily their need to recover from the disastrous ‘94 strike and their desire to avoid going head-to-head with the players union (again), especially over a non-revenue related issue. While you’re right about the pernicious influence of ESPN on sports, I think the significance of the HR record (and the general interest surrounding all the other MLB records) long predate ESPN, and TV in general. People like numbers.

You said ‘Steroids in sports are essential today. Fans won’t pay to see natural play. Too boring.’ The exact results of the Steriod era can be argued, but it seems to me that their use doesn’t necessarily translate into your percieved degradation of the game. Juiced baseballs, smaller stikezones, lower mounds – these result in the type of ball you disapprove of – Steroids seem to come into play for those records that are more endurance related (Season HR record – gotta stay off the DL for that, Career HR record – gotta stay healthy and in the game to get there), but don’t seem to really affect performance – you’ve still got to see the ball to hit the ball.

]]> By: Curt http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-96 Curt Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:44:05 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-96 Americans as a group are dumb. Very dumb. Disney (ABC, ESPN), GE-NBC, NewsCorp (Fox), Time Warner consutruct entire markeing platforms around mindless, meaningless sports, news, entertsainment. Ever wonder why the so-called Network NEWS reports never mentions the $1 BILLION US embassy in Baghdad or the 14 new air forces bases? We are NEVER leaving Iraq, not with $10 TRILLION in oil reserves and more oil in bordering Nations. Exxon, Chevron and Haliburton are staying--as are US tax dollars at work. Steroids in sports are essential today. Fans won't pay to see natural play. Too boring. Sports are now marketed to non-athletes and coach potatoes. Nike swooshes are too cool. Drunk coach potatoes demand action else they turn the channel to WWE, Joe Millionaire, Dancing with the Stars or Jerry Springer. Never take TV sports to heart. No lessions to be learned there. Anyone believe the NFL is clean? Or do they have a massive doping problem? College football too? You betcha. Americans place far too much trust on the black tube. Americans as a group are dumb. Very dumb.
Disney (ABC, ESPN), GE-NBC, NewsCorp (Fox), Time Warner consutruct entire markeing platforms around mindless, meaningless sports, news, entertsainment.
Ever wonder why the so-called Network NEWS reports never mentions the $1 BILLION US embassy in Baghdad or the 14 new air forces bases? We are NEVER leaving Iraq, not with $10 TRILLION in oil reserves and more oil in bordering Nations. Exxon, Chevron and Haliburton are staying–as are US tax dollars at work.
Steroids in sports are essential today. Fans won’t pay to see natural play. Too boring.
Sports are now marketed to non-athletes and coach potatoes.
Nike swooshes are too cool.
Drunk coach potatoes demand action else they turn the channel to WWE, Joe Millionaire, Dancing with the Stars or Jerry Springer.
Never take TV sports to heart. No lessions to be learned there.
Anyone believe the NFL is clean? Or do they have a massive doping problem? College football too? You betcha.
Americans place far too much trust on the black tube.

]]> By: Erin Dionne http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-95 Erin Dionne Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:28:45 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-95 Cheating as a policy? Then why play at all? If all pro sports are such a farce--putting $$ in the pockets of the networks/owners/athletes with no regard for quality of the game--that's a pretty sad state of affairs for America. And it means Americans are pretty dumb, putting entertainment over sportsmanship and talent. Then again... Cheating as a policy? Then why play at all? If all pro sports are such a farce–putting $$ in the pockets of the networks/owners/athletes with no regard for quality of the game–that’s a pretty sad state of affairs for America. And it means Americans are pretty dumb, putting entertainment over sportsmanship and talent.

Then again…

]]> By: Curt http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-94 Curt Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:02:44 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-94 I understand your sentiment and share it. BUT--cheating is an institutionally accepted and NECESARRY element of Disney Holdings (ESPN) success. GE/NBC Olympics too. The cheating is not a choice---put a policy. IOC, NFL, MLB etc.. Doping, corked bats, meaningless records boosts ratings and media revenues. Cheating is good for business. Essential as rigging a quiz show. (Charles van Doren ring a bell?) Hence, we must accept TV baseball and all TV underwritten sports as WWE entertanment NEVER to be taken seriously. Anyone who believe in Nike miracles is being played for a fool. A retail consumer fool. Sober, sad, tragic but true. I understand your sentiment and share it.
BUT–cheating is an institutionally accepted and NECESARRY element of Disney Holdings (ESPN) success. GE/NBC Olympics too.
The cheating is not a choice—put a policy. IOC, NFL, MLB etc..
Doping, corked bats, meaningless records boosts ratings and media revenues.
Cheating is good for business. Essential as rigging a quiz show. (Charles van Doren ring a bell?)
Hence, we must accept TV baseball and all TV underwritten sports as WWE entertanment NEVER to be taken seriously.
Anyone who believe in Nike miracles is being played for a fool. A retail consumer fool.
Sober, sad, tragic but true.

]]> By: Frank J. Colagiovanni http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-93 Frank J. Colagiovanni Mon, 18 Jun 2007 16:34:53 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-93 Curt: Thanks for reading and thanks for your response. While, I think you have an extremely strong point about the marketability and profitability of the Game, which is why I think the current MLB administration turned a blind eye to both Sosa and McGwire in 1998, my argument was about cheating—but more specifically about getting caught. I fully concede the point that there was cheating when Aaron played, just as there was when Ruth played. But, that fact that there are, and always have been, cheaters shouldn’t make it acceptable. Whether the records are meaningless or meaningful, cheating—and getting busted or called on it—should engender some kind of response. We’ll never catch every cheater or criminal, but when we do catch one, something should be done. In addition to whatever rules Bonds has broken with regard to steroids or other performance enhancers, he also broke the fabled 11th Commandment: Thou shalt not get caught. Curt:

Thanks for reading and thanks for your response.

While, I think you have an extremely strong point about the marketability and profitability of the Game, which is why I think the current MLB administration turned a blind eye to both Sosa and McGwire in 1998, my argument was about cheating—but more specifically about getting caught.

I fully concede the point that there was cheating when Aaron played, just as there was when Ruth played. But, that fact that there are, and always have been, cheaters shouldn’t make it acceptable.

Whether the records are meaningless or meaningful, cheating—and getting busted or called on it—should engender some kind of response. We’ll never catch every cheater or criminal, but when we do catch one, something should be done.

In addition to whatever rules Bonds has broken with regard to steroids or other performance enhancers, he also broke the fabled 11th Commandment: Thou shalt not get caught.

]]> By: Curt http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-87 Curt Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:35:19 +0000 http://breadandcircusnetwork.wordpress.com/2007/06/15/barry-bonds-hank-aaron-and-number-756/#comment-87 This HR record is meaningless except to INCREASE ESPN & MLB revenues and profits. The strike out records are pointless too. Corked bats, easy pitches and massive doping by all players mean that MLB is now WWE. Pete Rose used a corked bat. Sammy and others. They cheated back in Hank's day too. NEVER take Tv psorts seriously. Never. This HR record is meaningless except to INCREASE ESPN & MLB revenues and profits. The strike out records are pointless too.
Corked bats, easy pitches and massive doping by all players mean that MLB is now WWE.
Pete Rose used a corked bat. Sammy and others.
They cheated back in Hank’s day too.
NEVER take Tv psorts seriously. Never.

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